are we all sinners ??

[josephdc]

---

then how can you explain what seems to be right during Hitler's time but totally wrong during our time?

Do you think that what Hitler did was wrong? Do you think that it was wrong regardless of whether Hitler believed it to be right or not?

[AmorsoloX]

I think it follows also that, since evil does not exist, objective goodness does not exist, too, right? So things like self-sacrifice, justice, love, etc., are objectively meaningless actions, too, right?

What do you mean by the infinite intelligence?

yup... just as evil does not exist.. good does not also..... it only becomes good n evil if you label it so...

infinite intelligence..... thats that..... it cant be explained nor given human characteristics... it does not destinguish the good from the evil nor the ugly from the beautiful.. it is equal to all... it is the force that holds all the physical laws together..

all those horrible events caused by humans such as wars, genocide, ethnic cleansing.. are just evidence of the presence of conflicting interests within men... nothing more, nothing less..

ex.. two tribes... one tribe has no resources, the other tribe has enough for self sustenance... it is in the best interest of the first tribe to drive away, kill all, take over the second tribe as this would secure the tribe's survival.. it is also against the interests of the second tribe to share because doing so would inflict harm to its own members... there are no morals.. just necessities and conveniences...

[tripwire]

I'm really surprised you've been very candid and honest about your views. At the same time, I'm shocked that any person in his right mind can actually believe that the Holocaust, for example, or genocide, or rape, is not objectively wrong. I guess that's just fairly consistent with a naturalistic and atheistic worldview. The novelist Fyodor Dostoyevsky once said that without God or immortality, everything is permitted. I think your views have been pretty revealing so far. With that kind of worldview or philosophy, one can justify anything, even the most horrendous and despicable of acts.

I am also surprised why for all reason you have to view everything that is wrong as "atheistic". Are atheists really that bad? Killers, murderers, whoremongers, warfreaks, rapists, molesters, anti-christs? I think this veiw is lopsided. I am not an atheist but I learn to like their views their ideals and their blunt perspective in life. We can't justify and insistent that everything is true. We view life as good... either you're a christian, atheists, buddhist, muslim... etc...

Isn't it ther an old saying... happy to those who are happy? We are not living in a world with religious dictatoship anymore... people have ways and means... it's just not what you expected it to be.

[munzter666]

Not sure what you mean bro. Amorsolo was saying that he believes there is no such thing as objective right and wrong, that morality is subjective and relative. Do you agree with him?

there is NO objective nor ABSOLUTE morality.(people who lobby this ABSOLUTES are screwed up bigots in the funny papers). morality for me is relative as well as subjective.

It sounds like you believe in objective right and wrong. So you disagree with Amorsolo?

It also sounds like you believe that account in the Old Testament.

putting your first hand receivers of the commandments from bush fire being in the lime light does not equate to ME believing it's accountability. now, back to moses and his ilk...
if absolute morality was in hand by then, how come we can consider SOME if not MOST of their ACTS and PRACTICES as revolting and foul in today's age.(i.e. slavery, genocide and baby killings, etc.)

face it, moses and his ilk had was an IN-GROUP type of morality. it only shared and revolved within that specified group...rest of the world never could give a damn. and men of the cloth want to pattern and mirror such framework just because its in the pages of some holy book.

[munzter666]

Is killing a part of the ten commandments?
It"s the word of GOD and Moses was only the instrument to convey.

you are missing the point. let me break it down for yah...

They(moses and company) got the commandments(thou shalt not killl, etc..)

few days later they wipe out some tribe. now tell me, what the fudge is that?

that kind of instrument conveyed one self defeating message.

goes to reflect the type of morality these people have. INEFFECTIVE.

[AmorsoloX]

I am also surprised why for all reason you have to view everything that is wrong as "atheistic". Are atheists really that bad? Killers, murderers, whoremongers, warfreaks, rapists, molesters, anti-christs? I think this veiw is lopsided. I am not an atheist but I learn to like their views their ideals and their blunt perspective in life. We can't justify and insistent that everything is true. We view life as good... either you're a christian, atheists, buddhist, muslim... etc...

Isn't it ther an old saying... happy to those who are happy? We are not living in a world with religious dictatoship anymore... people have ways and means... it's just not what you expected it to be.

i agree... i believe that the reason there is too much religious conflict on this world is because people dont respect the views of others...

[cutiejhane]

yes... all of us are sinners.

[Sinyalan]

yes... all of us are sinners.

Kamo ra!

[josephdc]

infinite intelligence..... thats that..... it cant be explained nor given human characteristics... it does not destinguish the good from the evil nor the ugly from the beautiful.. it is equal to all... it is the force that holds all the physical laws together..

This is a separate issue, but is this "infinite intelligence" similar to the concept of God?

all those horrible events caused by humans such as wars, genocide, ethnic cleansing.. are just evidence of the presence of conflicting interests within men... nothing more, nothing less..

You believe they were horrible... Is anything that is "horrible" bad?

ex.. two tribes... one tribe has no resources, the other tribe has enough for self sustenance... it is in the best interest of the first tribe to drive away, kill all, take over the second tribe as this would secure the tribe's survival.. it is also against the interests of the second tribe to share because doing so would inflict harm to its own members... there are no morals.. just necessities and conveniences...

I see. "Might makes right" in other words, right?

[josephdc]

I am also surprised why for all reason you have to view everything that is wrong as "atheistic". Are atheists really that bad? Killers, murderers, whoremongers, warfreaks, rapists, molesters, anti-christs? I think this veiw is lopsided.

I never said atheists are bad people. I was only pursuing Amorsolo's idea about morality. He said that there are no objective moral truths like right and wrong, good and evil, so I asked him if he thinks certain events, like the Holocaust, genocide and acts like rape, are not objectively evil, and I was shocked that he thinks they're not. So I said that perhaps that's just consistent with an atheistic or naturalistic worldview, because according to atheism, at least as far as I understand it, God does not exist, so there's no transcendent and objective foundation for moral values. Morality, according to atheism and naturalism, is simply the by-product of socio-biological evolution, so morality is only subjective and relative.

I am not an atheist but I learn to like their views their ideals and their blunt perspective in life. We can't justify and insistent that everything is true. We view life as good... either you're a christian, atheists, buddhist, muslim... etc...

Are you saying that you believe the claims of atheism?

Isn't it ther an old saying... happy to those who are happy? We are not living in a world with religious dictatoship anymore... people have ways and means... it's just not what you expected it to be.

What do you mean?