are we all sinners ??

[josephdc]

---

Here's a fact.

Q: Why do you think christians are quick to label people, evil?
A: Because you christian spread the gospel of love and tolerance, yet its a well known fact that the most cases of murder, rape and abortions happen in christian communities.

How true is that?

What point are you trying to make?

[cptn_star]

Here's a fact.

Q: Why do you think christians are quick to label people, evil?
A: Because you christian spread the gospel of love and tolerance, yet its a well known fact that the most cases of murder, rape and abortions happen in christian communities.

How true is that?

is this some kind of a destructive statement?

[fingolfin]

Do you believe then bro that moral values change over time? You brought up the issue of slavery. At one time in our history it's acceptable to have slaves, now slavery is recognized as a moral wrong. But does that mean that slavery is not really wrong? If things change in the distant future and nations again adopt the practice of keeping slaves, would that make slavery good again?



Are you then saying that robbing and "snatching" is not really wrong?

.. yes jos, that's what i'm trying to say. Every aspect of life has it's different interpretation in different time frames. So, morals is constantly evolving.

.. and in terms of that the act of robbery, yes, it's not entirely wrong, just put yourself on those robbers shoes, and ask yourself, why do i commit such act

.. have you ever talked to any rebel or killer or robber ??

[chad_tukes]

So you're saying that the act of murder itself is not really wrong, but you may feel it's wrong?

So for you there's no such thing as good or bad actions, all actions are value-neutral?

How about the Holocaust, would you say that what Hitler did to the Jews and the other ethnic minorities are not wrong?

can i say something... if you don't mind, sir.

i think Amorsolo is saying that morals change overtime. did Hitler do what he did because he was evil? no. ergo, Hitler did what he thought was right at that moment --- and that is to kill millions of Jews. do i see Hitler's actions as wrong? absolutely. like you for instance, sir, you think Hitler's actions were wrong because you feel it was wrong. if we so criticize Hitler's actions then why do we leave GOD off the equation. GOD killed millions right? that's what the Bible says. but why do we leave him out? because there was justification to back it up? of course. and yes, because Christian's felt it was GOD and he never makes mistakes.

[tripwire]

In the eyes of a Christian, of course it is wrong. But for the person who committed it, it was right for him. Righ and wrong nowadays are subjective. Even my patients asked pain relievers because they are in pain though we know that it isn't because we treated it well. We don't give them what they want but the doctors instead ordered us to give them something so they will not sue the hospital. Is it an act of cruelty on our behalf or not. We know that patients are asking for it because they are already addicted to it and yet we give it to them anyways. In the eyes of others, we're wrong even if we do it for the purpose of his/her well-being.

[fingolfin]

can i say something... if you don't mind, sir.

i think Amorsolo is saying that morals change overtime. did Hitler do what he did because he was evil? no. ergo, Hitler did what he thought was right at that moment --- and that is to kill millions of Jews. do i see Hitler's actions as wrong? absolutely. like you for instance, sir, you think Hitler's actions were wrong because you feel it was wrong. if we so criticize Hitler's actions then why do we leave GOD off the equation. GOD killed millions right? that's what the Bible says. but why do we leave him out? because there was justification to back it up? of course. and yes, because Christian's felt it was GOD and he never makes mistakes.

.. yes, the best example would be that incident of Noah, when "god" made that flood. That was mass murder so to speak, but how come christians accept that it is morally right ?? Because it was God that did it ??


.. and back to morality, the best example of it would be fashion. A hundred years ago, it was considered immoral for a woman to wear a dress that exposes her legs, but now, most women almost wears nothing in public, if you know what i mean. That's why there can never be an absolute wrong nor right.

[treize]

.. yes, the best example would be that incident of Noah, when "god" made that flood. That was mass murder so to speak, but how come christians accept that it is morally right ?? Because it was God that did it ??

We humans are simply paying the consequences for our actions here on earth.. Just like here in istorya.net we are being judged and punished based on the actions and behavior we've made.. do we get to argue? no.. arguing will only lead to severe punishment... So why do we humans level ourselves to God? are we that highly intelligent? are we that powerful? are we so capable of doing his job?

[josephdc]

.. yes jos, that's what i'm trying to say. Every aspect of life has it's different interpretation in different time frames. So, morals is constantly evolving.

So for you what's wrong at one time in our history can be right in another time (the present), such as slavery... So you're saying that slavery itself is not wrong?

.. and in terms of that the act of robbery, yes, it's not entirely wrong, just put yourself on those robbers shoes, and ask yourself, why do i commit such act

.. have you ever talked to any rebel or killer or robber ??

I'm amazed that you believe that bro. I mean, you don't think robbery is wrong?

[josephdc]

can i say something... if you don't mind, sir.

i think Amorsolo is saying that morals change overtime. did Hitler do what he did because he was evil? no. ergo, Hitler did what he thought was right at that moment --- and that is to kill millions of Jews.

I hope Amorsolo can clarify what he meant when he said that there's really no such thing as right and wrong. Maybe what he really meant was that there's no such thing as objective right and wrong (or right and wrong that are independent of human opinion or feelings), only subjective and relative right and wrong (or the idea that what's "right" or "wrong" for you may not be "right" or "wrong" for me). Did he meant the latter? I guess if it's true that morality is really just subjective and relative, it would make sense to say that it changes over time, so that what may be true at one time may be wrong in another time.

Now, if it's true that morality (right and wrong) are just subjective and relative, and if it undergoes change over time, that would mean that Hitler really did no wrong in exterminating the Jews, given that it was part of Nazi morality to get rid of the Jews, right? You seem to admit that because you seem to say that Hitler didn't really do anything wrong because he "did what he thought was right at that moment --- and that is to kill millions of Jews."

do i see Hitler's actions as wrong? absolutely.

Now, I'm a bit confused here sir. You agreed with Amorsolo that there's no such thing as (objective) right and wrong, didn't you? And you also seemed to think that morality changes over time, am I right? How come you now say that Hitler's actions were absolutely wrong when you said earlier that morality changes over time? Who are you to judge Hitler when, in your own words, he "did what he thought was right at that moment --- and that is to kill millions of Jews"?

like you for instance, sir, you think Hitler's actions were wrong because you feel it was wrong.

I can't recall having made that statement about Hitler sir.

If you ask me, I think that what Hitler did was abominable, not because I feel it's abominable, but simply because I know it's abominable. It's plainly obvious. You can ask anyone what they think about the Holocaust and anyone who thinks that the Holocaust is somehow right has, to be quite frank about it, impaired moral judgments. I don't mean you, of course. I'm sure you also agree that it was an abomination.

if we so criticize Hitler's actions then why do we leave GOD off the equation.

You said earlier sir that morality changes over time. If that's true, can we really criticize Hitler?

GOD killed millions right? that's what the Bible says.

So you believe what the Bible says?

but why do we leave him out? because there was justification to back it up? of course. and yes, because Christian's felt it was GOD and he never makes mistakes.

What do you mean?

[josephdc]

.. yes, the best example would be that incident of Noah, when "god" made that flood. That was mass murder so to speak, but how come christians accept that it is morally right ?? Because it was God that did it ??

So you think that that was morally wrong sir?

.. and back to morality, the best example of it would be fashion. A hundred years ago, it was considered immoral for a woman to wear a dress that exposes her legs, but now, most women almost wears nothing in public, if you know what i mean. That's why there can never be an absolute wrong nor right.

Is the robber or the killer merely acting 'out of fashion' then, sir?